By Shaimaa Fayed, Dina Zayed
REUTERS
CAIRO: A top police witness at the trial of Hosni Mubarak said Monday he was not aware of any order to fire on protesters who ousted the Egyptian president, as scuffles erupted inside and outside the courtroom.
But General Hussein Saeed Mohammad Moussa said police were given guns and live ammunition to protect the Interior Ministry, a decision he said was issued by a senior officer, Ahmad Ramzi, who is one of the defendants.

Mubarak is charged with involvement in killing protesters and “inciting” officers to use live ammunition against them, in the first trial of an Arab leader in person since street unrest erupted across the Middle East early this year.
Some 850 people died in the protests that erupted on Jan. 25 and ended Mubarak’s three decades in office.
Mubarak was wheeled on a gurney into a metal defendants’ cage in the court for the third session of his trial and the first to take witness testimony.

“In my 30 years of experience with state security, I have not heard of any incident where an order was given to use live ammunition against protesters,” Moussa, head of communication in the state security service, told the court.
Moussa was earlier identified on state television as Mursi. Live television cameras were barred from the court after the first two sessions on Aug. 3 and 15 were broadcast live.

Moussa, who was in the police operations room during the uprising, said he heard Ramzi and other officers saying they did not have reinforcements to protect prisons and the Interior Ministry, prompting the decision to issue live ammunition. He said he believed that decision was taken by Ramzi.
Asked if there were orders to fire live ammunition at the Interior Ministry, Moussa said there were “very clear” orders to protect the ministry. He added that weapons were ferried by ambulances as police vehicles were targeted.

Many police stations were stormed and burned down during the height of the violence in the 18-day revolt. Numerous police vehicles were also attacked, overturned and torched.
Mubarak is being tried alongside his two sons, Gamal and Alaa, former Interior Minister Habib al-Adli and six senior police officers, including Ramzi.

The court proceedings were delayed by a fight in the chamber when a Mubarak supporter lifted up a photo of the former president, angering relatives of victims. Lawyers for plaintiffs also entered the fray. The agitation prompted Judge Ahmad Refaat to call a recess.

Outside, supporters chanted: “He gave us 30 years of protection, Mubarak hold your head up high.”
Nearby, anti-Mubarak protesters hurled stones at police lines and some officers threw rocks back. At one point police with shields and batons charged a group of demonstrators.

“He has to be hanged. We don’t want any more delays in the court session,” said Mohammad Essam, who had travelled to Cairo from the Nile Delta town of Kafr al-Sheikh.
A bloodied man shouted: “I call on the free Egyptian people, the youth of the revolution, to see what state security is doing with the revolutionaries.”

Witnesses said that police used tear gas, water cannon, rubber bullets and live ammunition. Moussa described events of Jan. 28, one of the most violent days, when he said police were ordered to prevent protesters from reaching Tahrir Square, the center of the protests.
“The orders were to deal with the protesters as the situation mandated and the freedom was left to them to deal with protesters in a manner that they saw fit,” Moussa added.

Wael Bahgat, a lawyer representing the family of a victim, told reporters outside the court during a break that the term “‘in a manner they saw fit’ means shotgun cartridges, live bullets, water and tear gas.”
Lawyers also said Moussa’s testimony conflicted with statements during earlier questioning.
“I am reassured after hearing the witness account today, even though his accounts contradict what he said at the prosecution,” said Hesham Mahfouz, also representing plaintiffs. The next session of the trial is set for Sept. 7.